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Berlingo, 30 batteries!

 
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olev
Elektrisk


Registreringsdatum: 02 november 2007
Inlägg: 247
Ort: Slagelse

InläggPostat: 2013-10-21 09:31:45    Rubrik: Berlingo, 30 batteries! Svara med citat

I tråden "liten packn til Berlingo" skriver Pera L
Very easy to rise charger voltage in Berlingo.
He drives with 30 NiCd Batteries.

PC has used 20 batteries in Clio and Hawk is mounting no 21!
Citroen Saxo wit 21 batteries is running at PC.

I hope Pera L will write a little about the "trick"

Hälsninger från DK
OleV
_________________
e = r x i
Clio electrique -98 x2
Saxo electrique -97 -99
Berlingo electrique -02
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Pera L
Elektrisk


Registreringsdatum: 05 april 2010
Inlägg: 174

InläggPostat: 2013-10-21 12:21:29    Rubrik: Svara med citat

Hola hombres, heijjaa Sverige! I didn't realize that short sentence rised up so strongly. But shortly, rising up voltage in charge you must change NTC value in the engine room battery box. Suitable value is between 4,5 to 4,7kohm. Resistance curve can be as standard so NTC:s cost something like 5SEK each. Expencive but life is...
As the sensor power handling in Berlingo is near the limit (same as Renault) you can put two 10kohm parallel. Original is 3,3kohm. Easiest installation is to drill 10mm hole to battery box, just under the expansion tank. Note that the battery end is just under 10mm from the wall so dont put a hole in the battery. Then connect extra batteries in the series with others.
Because NiCads are sensitive for temparature at charging mode you must arrange cooling so that all batteries are the same temperature. Then they getting full at the same time in charging and also end of discharge. I have using own water circulation with biltemas small water pump and reducing voltage for about 6V with resistor. Hope the pump will last longer, so far over year now.
About safety, battery poles must isolated so that there is no possibility touch them, batteries must tighten so that they can handle upside down driving (heh-heh) and if some strange reason happends extra battery blowup it does not cause any harm for the passengers.
Car will be very different with these changes, driving distance will be much more than kWh showing because there coming more Ah:s with smaller current but with same power. Bad point is that the car will moving quite well so driving habit changes, maybe. Because current for the elmotor keeps the same in maximium but getting lower at the same power prediction for motor life is very good. Electronics can handling some 300V so no problem from that side.
Thanks from the cup of coffee in advance!
_________________
Too much spannung caused curly hair.
Involved for too many electric cars so must
rise up medication.
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olev
Elektrisk


Registreringsdatum: 02 november 2007
Inlägg: 247
Ort: Slagelse

InläggPostat: 2013-10-21 17:42:06    Rubrik: Svara med citat

Hello Pera!
Thank You for the answer.
But please, explain how changing the NTC (thermal registration) resistor wil change the charging voltage.
But nice to know that it works and makes slow cars faster!
The Citroën Saxo is realy slow, but with 21 batteries it is much better.
Perhaps we should try with 22 batteries. The coal brushes in Saxo and Berlingo is weaker than in Renault - so raising the voltage i better than more throttle.
Greetings from DK
OleV
_________________
e = r x i
Clio electrique -98 x2
Saxo electrique -97 -99
Berlingo electrique -02
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pm_dawn
Elbilsguru


Registreringsdatum: 17 mars 2008
Inlägg: 1731
Ort: Östersund

InläggPostat: 2013-10-21 20:51:27    Rubrik: Svara med citat

Hi !

Does the change of NTC also change the max regen voltage or does the regen stop working ?

Regards
/Per
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Pera L
Elektrisk


Registreringsdatum: 05 april 2010
Inlägg: 174

InläggPostat: 2013-10-23 00:02:34    Rubrik: Svara med citat

Hej! Sorry about delay. It has been busy with elcars lately.
Sensor in the engine compartment battery box changes end charging voltage depending from the battery temperature. NiCd flooded battery is strange case; if it comes full at +20C for about 7,4V it needs over 8,2V at -20C. So, telling for ECU that the temperature is lower it will raises up voltage. Also because there is a balancing charge at the final stage you can get 30 batteries full. I have tested with four extra batteries but it is too much for the limits installed for ECU. Summertime it's ok but not winter.
Regen works like a dream, absolutely no problem. No noticeable difference.

Of course there is littlebit work before system has installed but it's worth of it. Must do watering outlet pipe thru the floor as the cables. Must also use at least 35mm2 cables. Must do connections for the fuse holders etc...

Very shortly I will test 2 extra batteries for P106/Saxo. Prediction is that end results are similar than Berlingo with three extras. Hope that P106 moves 100km in summer and winter. By changing charging voltage is littlebit more difficult than Berlingo but not much.

About the brushes, now I have the ones which working fantastic. T'was taking almost 2 years testing, metallurgical and physical analyst and over 70000 test kilometers with three car. I'm happy at last. Life prediction is between 30000 to 60000 km. So far I have driven some over 30000km with my own Berlingo and wait to see 50000km before changing. Price is under 100e including customs and moms.
_________________
Too much spannung caused curly hair.
Involved for too many electric cars so must
rise up medication.
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Användarens profil Skicka personligt meddelande
Pera L
Elektrisk


Registreringsdatum: 05 april 2010
Inlägg: 174

InläggPostat: 2013-10-23 00:07:30    Rubrik: Svara med citat

Heps! Almost forget, elbox cooling system with blower works as before. There is two sensors inside of the elbox. So, no overheating.
_________________
Too much spannung caused curly hair.
Involved for too many electric cars so must
rise up medication.
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Användarens profil Skicka personligt meddelande
olev
Elektrisk


Registreringsdatum: 02 november 2007
Inlägg: 247
Ort: Slagelse

InläggPostat: 2013-10-23 22:13:16    Rubrik: Svara med citat

Hello!
21 batteries in Saxo/P106 works ok, but regen not the first km when freshly charged- so with 22 stk - probably a little later.
Do you have a link for the brushes?
We have bougt them from France - via french forum member. Babar 2508.
OleV
_________________
e = r x i
Clio electrique -98 x2
Saxo electrique -97 -99
Berlingo electrique -02
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Pera L
Elektrisk


Registreringsdatum: 05 april 2010
Inlägg: 174

InläggPostat: 2013-10-24 12:03:44    Rubrik: Svara med citat

Hej! Maybe first kilometers are not so important with regen.
I have a deal with manufacturer for brushes made for me. I was so tired for bad brushes available. Time to time I take some amount of brushes. If you want test one set and be a happy man I will sent them for you. I just afraid that tremendous hobby will change to boring work... just yesterday I installing three repaired elbox for elbils... so prediction is not very good....

Hälsningar
Pera L
_________________
Too much spannung caused curly hair.
Involved for too many electric cars so must
rise up medication.
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Användarens profil Skicka personligt meddelande
Frolle
Elektrisk


Registreringsdatum: 11 augusti 2008
Inlägg: 101
Ort: Göteborg

InläggPostat: 2016-09-26 13:17:36    Rubrik: Svara med citat

Interesting with the extra NiCd-blocks!
I would like to do the same.
Is there anyone that has done this modification that maybe can post some pictures? Always nice to not re-invent the wheel again ;- )

One thought.. Is it possible to add a 350SEK Ebay-power-suppy, 24 Volt 20 Amp for three extra blocks in series with the on-board charger instead of manipulating the temperature sensor?
Maybe an external power supply would make it possible with even four extra blocks all year around if the built in charger will not “see” the extra Volts added. If the electronics is good for 300V it means 36 blocks (close to Tesla performance ;- ), but maybe that is to push our luck.
The lack of temperature compensation for the added power supply would only be equivalent to about one shortened cell.

Or maybe there is no benefit from doing that…
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Pera L
Elektrisk


Registreringsdatum: 05 april 2010
Inlägg: 174

InläggPostat: 2016-10-01 23:09:17    Rubrik: Svara med citat

Hi again!
Littlebit more info about the subject.
By using different resistor/NTC for battery temp side it is not very accurate about voltage. Also charger feels the rising speed for the voltage and thinks that the batteries are full. There is also some variation between the cars about the voltages.
Absolutely max voltage where charger works is 250V. A good way to get batteries full every time is to switch, with Lexia, balancing charge on. Then extra contactor to net wire and connect contactor coil voltage circulate thru the fourth pins and electronic relay. With 5W zener and resistor you can pick up a good voltage depending two or three extra batteries. System need one switch to start charging. Two extra batteries voltage can be like 235V and three as 240V.
Equalisation charge fill the batteries with max current for some 214-217V and then moves for smaller current, about 8 amps. It never have time to end equalisation charge so the time to next charge it will repeat equalisation.
And before some one ask after the wiring; Yes, I do not have wiring anywhere except in my head. I will try to draw it down near future. It's not very complicated.

Hälsningar
Pera L
_________________
Too much spannung caused curly hair.
Involved for too many electric cars so must
rise up medication.
Till överst på sidan
Användarens profil Skicka personligt meddelande
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